McGazz ([info]mcgazz) wrote,
@ 2009-05-28 12:40:00
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What a bunch of 30Cs

I have no interest in homeopathy and other forms of alternative medicine. If people believe jars of water or inert oily stuff lessens the symptoms of their illness, good for them. Whatever works for you. As far as I understand it, alternative medicine works by the placebo effect, a well-established scientific phenomenon for which bags of evidence exists.

The Guardian, in a bit of ill-conceived comment-whorage, decided to have a Q&A with London-based yoghurt-weaving herbalists Neil's Yard. NY were perhaps a little daft to agree to it, but they presumably thought that at least some of the questions would be about their commitment to recycling, ethical sourcing, etc. Instead, a smugswarm of Badscience-reader types descended immediately, decrying the herbal healers by posting staggering insights along the lines of 'homeopathic remedies aren't much use in cases of blunt trauma'. Take that, apothecary! Up the Enlightenment! After scrolling down the first page of comments, I actually found myself siding with Neil's Yard.

In the same way that the Dawkins-fanboys are "culturally Christian" C of E atheists with no desire to create a genuinely godless system of morality, motivated solely by the prospect of point-scoring online and sticking it to some beardies, the Ben Goldacre dittoheads are generally scientifically illiterate smartarses motivated solely by the prospect of point-scoring online and sticking it to some beardies. While I've no time for crystal healing fetishists or 'smell to get well' types, there's nothing more likely to earn them my sympathy than reams of self-congratulatory high-fiving from uppity little berks who bang on about "control groups", "empirical evidence" and "peer review" despite having never so much as seen a scientific paper in their life, much less read one.

Just as the Dawkinsians ignore the damage done by the universally-believed (but non-theist) religion of "the free market", preferring the easy target of God-botherers, the Science Nerds have little to say about the dodgy stuff done by Big Pharma (pathologising ordinary human behaviour for profit, or manipulating the results of those precious peer-reviewed studies), preferring the easy target of essential oil hawkers. There's nothing so depressing as seeing people imagining they're speaking truth to power as they nobly stand up for the establishment against the totalitarian tyranny of... a few harmless loons.

Maybe I have a natural tendency to side with the underdog, or I'm just a born contrarian, but - bloody hell. The first page of comments included Mr Logic-esque gems like "sounds like classic regression to the mean" (italics in original) and "ah, the post hoc ergo propter hoc argument from anecdote." Can you imagine someone coming out with noxious I-think-you'll-find-ery like that in the pub? I'd want to slam a fire door shut on their head repeatedly.

I'm reminded of the time The Lancet published a study by Johns Hopkins University (peer reviewed and all the rest of it), estimating the casualties produced by the invasion of Iraq at 650000, ten times what the ultra-conservative figures produced by the likes of Iraq Body Count were giving at that point. Supporters of the war, faced with having to defend civilian deaths an order of magnitude higher than they'd previously thought, suddenly became experts on epidemiology, and bawbags who'd always imagined those Tefal adverts were an accurate portrayal of scientists were suddenly crowing about "flawed methodology" and "main street bias". The shitstorm in a test tube culminated in the invention of the phrase "rhetorical inflation" and the assertion that The Lancet was an agent of Islamofascism.

In other words, the rule seems to be - science is great when you can use it to piss hippies off, but it's totally rubbish when it discovers we killed loads of brown people.




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[info]dermfitz
2009-05-28 12:04 pm UTC (link)
To be fair to Dr Benji, he does actually talk at some length about the pharmaceutical industry in less than glowing terms in Bad Science. Just cos his pals pick and choose, it doesn't make him any less credible. Same with Dawkins, to an extent, but I prefer him on evolution than the religious stuff.

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[info]mcgazz
2009-05-28 12:19 pm UTC (link)
No, you're right. Goldacre is really good on some stuff, he's not a monomaniac like Dawkins. I suppose I'm just using his name as there's no official leader of that crowd.

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[info]giro_playgirl
2009-05-28 12:11 pm UTC (link)
In fairness to Goldacre and his eyebrows-of-doom, I do think he is genuinely trying to make a difference and HELP the general public's understanding of science, rather than just pick a fight for the sake of it. Unfortunately, as is always the case with these things, you're going to get up-themselves-toadies tagging along for the ride with their "THIS" and "ME TOO!" isms. What he's saying does make sense, unlike Dawkins who I have more than one serious problem with (which I'm not going into here, because I'm trying to write someone's website for them, and quite frankly don't have the time).

Seriously, some of the Scientific reportage you see in the newspapers (and yes, this does include quality broadsheets, not just the Daily Fail) is astoundingly bad. SERIOUS Journalists do need a rudimetary understanding of things like the placebo effect and regression to the mean if they're going to adequately report on medical studies and scientific achievements. In that sense, I think Bad Science should be required reading for all Journalism students. That doesn't mean they should all run after Goldacre trying to (metaphorically) suck his knob.

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[info]mcgazz
2009-05-28 12:21 pm UTC (link)
True. I don't have a big prob with Goldacre himself - he is an actual scientist - but his worshippers are as uninformed and hysterical as the Daily Heil's journos.

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[info]craig_pulsar
2009-06-01 10:44 am UTC (link)
journalists Don't Do science (or engineering, maths, physics, or any of that general stuff).

There was an unedifying interview with a BBC journalist recently where he corrected a politician who had said that division by zero was infinity - "actually, I think you'll find it is zero."

For whatever reason, the kind of people who do techy stuff don't get into journalism. (There are a few computer geeks, but that is different.)

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[info]mcgazz
2009-06-01 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Hair-splitting alert: I was always told by Maths teachers that division by zero wasn't infinity, but that it was 'undefined'. I think some algebra problems go Pete Tong is you assume x/0=infinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero)

> "actually, I think you'll find it is zero."

Heheheh - what a tool!

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[info]giro_playgirl
2009-06-02 10:51 pm UTC (link)
journalists Don't Do science (or engineering, maths, physics, or any of that general stuff).

You're right. We don't. I think my D in GCSE Maths (and the fact I have to add most things up using my fingers and my toes) is testament to that. Indeed, find me a Journalist who passed GCSE (or equivalent) Maths first time round and I'll buy both you and them a pint.

Some techy people do get into the media though. The discussions and debate concerning use of Social Media tools and their outreach do involve a lot of Journalists and big media conglomerates who say that they're using them to promote outreach, but most of the time are looking for ways in which they can make more money now that the print industry is dying on its arse.

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[info]tomatobredie
2009-05-28 12:41 pm UTC (link)
I just hate Guardian commenters.

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[info]i_am_gill
2009-05-28 02:18 pm UTC (link)
My gran swears by homeopathy, and when anyone challenges it she 'proves' it works by telling the story of the time her dog had a sore leg that went away after she have it some homeopathic medicine.

A dog can't experience a placebo affect, she says. But a dog also can't talk and therefore cannot describe to you exactly how it's feeling!

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[info]mcgazz
2009-05-28 03:56 pm UTC (link)
I'll bet anyone who peered over their specs at your Gran and said "ah, the post hoc ergo propter hoc argument from anecdote" would end up with a mouthful of teeth, and quite right too.

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[info]cheapgreens
2009-05-28 04:49 pm UTC (link)
Very very well said

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[info]milgram
2009-05-28 06:44 pm UTC (link)
not sure why emma linked me to this, but....


Whilst I agree with your post for the most part, i think the same could be said for any other political/online movement. A lot of people are going to make inane comments (basically that's what all of CiF is), but should any movement be discredited by its one-way association with office workers with too much time on their hands?

Their commenting is not coordinated, and it is not aiming to fix things. it's just a mixture of frustration and entertainment. I guess those people feel pretty incapable of personally affecting change, so they're just laughing about it. The same thing happens on feminist blogs, and, presumably, anti-religion ones if they exist. It's a response to the fact that those issues didn't actually have a mainstream voice until pretty recently. I think a lot of people are reveling in simply that.

This is actually what i find most irritating about Goldacre. He's actually in a position to do something about basic understanding of evidence based medicine, but every time i hear him fuming away on the today program he's huffing and puffing and making no impact at all.



On another note, I disagree with your assertion that "Science Nerds have little to say about the dodgy stuff done by Big Pharma", but perhaps we have been reading different badscience/quackery blogs(?) You honestly don't think these commenters are the same ones that are going to comment on an article about pfizer-sponsored research into female arousal, or leaked emails concerning seroxat trials? I think they actually are.

As a science nerd, i don't feel like the evils of big pharma are some niche interest. It's pretty much assumed by most folk that big pharma is evil, we even get hollywood films about it for christsakes. Try telling people you work for one of those companies (which i did for a while, as a student), and will you soon realize how much people know about what pharma does wrong... but the same people will not bat an eyelid when a friend skips vaccinating their child (!) Now I work in academia on HIV research, and pretty much the only time non-scientists are willing to talk about what i do is when they have bought into some deadly aids-denialist nonsense. It's infuriating. I probably would be tempted to participate, like the people you are judging, in a bad-science style online movement if i wasn't surrounded, at work, buy actual biologists with which to share my frustrations.

Having said all that, today i read a nice article about how to improve communication of evidence based medicine: http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000114

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[info]the_spiel
2009-05-28 05:50 pm UTC (link)
Maybe I have a natural tendency to side with the underdog, or I'm just a born contrarian, but - bloody hell. The first page of comments included Mr Logic-esque gems like "sounds like classic regression to the mean" (italics in original) and "ah, the post hoc ergo propter hoc argument from anecdote." Can you imagine someone coming out with noxious I-think-you'll-find-ery like that in the pub? I'd want to slam a fire door shut on their head repeatedly.

I can totally imagine that, but then I went to St Andrews ;) You want to hear some of the pub conversations!

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[info]rhodri
2009-05-28 06:28 pm UTC (link)
I agree, it's typical CiF grandstanding.

I went to have hypnotherapy and found it laughable, but I would never dream of saying that it's useless, as clearly many people find it invaluable.

The routes by which we achieve placebo-effect health benefits by mind-over-body are fascinating. Obviously alt-therapy practitioners won't market their products as "As Good As Placebo!" because despite the placebo effect being marked and invaluable, as soon as you call something placebo it stops it having a placebo effect, because people think it's rubbish. So the remedies get called medicine. And that's where all the problems start. No wonder Neals Yard chose to say nothing.

It's SO interesting. Cos many of those who offer alt-therapy know it's only placebo, but can't say so, because it stops it being placebo.

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[info]mcgazz
2009-05-28 06:53 pm UTC (link)
The placebo effort is strange thing indeed. It's annoying in a way - if the NHS could hand out jars of water and get the same effect, it'd cost the taxpayer pennies and put a lot of the shadier homeopaths out of business. But it wouldn't work, would it? People wouldn't subconsciously believe enough in something they got for free for the placebo effect to kick in. I think people get pissed off at the idea of someone selling a container of water or tuppenceworth of herbs for £30, but it's not as if the likes of GlaxoSmithKline don't, through manipulation of patents and whatnot, sell dirt cheap plant extracts at astronomical markups as well.

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(Anonymous)
2009-05-29 12:33 pm UTC (link)
Francis Wheen devoted a whole chapter to the free market in his Mumbo-Jumbo book. He saw our blind faith in it as more evidence of the end of the age of enlightenment. He even noted the timing of Thatcher's election next to the Iranian revolution. It's an easy read and not at all angry or hectoring. I doubt anybody on CiF has read it, though, or any other book, except the collected works of J Clarkson.

Who are these people angrily commenting on CiF? What makes them so furious? It's even become a staple at http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/



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[info]bongo_kong
2009-05-29 12:34 pm UTC (link)
Francis Wheen devoted a whole chapter to the free market in his Mumbo-Jumbo book. He saw our blind faith in it as more evidence of the end of the age of enlightenment. He even noted the timing of Thatcher's election next to the Iranian revolution. It's an easy read and not at all angry or hectoring. I doubt anybody on CiF has read it, though, or any other book, except the collected works of J Clarkson.

Who are these people angrily commenting on CiF? What makes them so furious? It's even become a staple at http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/



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[info]mcgazz
2009-05-29 01:42 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, it's bad when CiF becomes indistinguishable from the BBC's "Have Your Say".

I haven't read the Wheen book either, although I've heard a few people say nice things about it. If I understand correctly, it's essentially a collection of essays on topics that grind his gears - I think the one on the free market might be a lot more interesting and original than his diatribe against astrology.

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[info]onemanlandslide
2009-05-30 09:22 pm UTC (link)
It's a few years since I read it, but it I also recomment the Wheen book.

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[info]schism_schasm
2009-06-02 12:13 pm UTC (link)
Great post, my friend.

Re: division, the politician was Alex Salmond, the journalist Brian Taylor, the question prompted by a primary school teacher not knowing what happens when you use zero as a divisor. My mum says that for purposes of primary school maths the party line is that the quotient will be equal to the dividend as "you can't divide by nothing". However for high falutin' uni maths the answer is probably something like "approaching infinity" since using increasingly small fractions as a divisor will lead to increasingly large quotients... But I'm way out of my comfort zone on this side of the brain.

Led to a wide-spread maths debate up here, anyway.

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[info]mcgazz
2009-06-03 09:04 am UTC (link)
Brian "too many expenses-paid lunches" Taylor there.

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